I dont think that myself or Daniel represent “young popular christianity”, as this log is based on OUR OWN opinions and we are not representing anyone elses.
It is a sad state of affairs that you must be judgemental in this way and stereotype lower hutt (for whatever reason brought you to do this as there are more than two churches in the city (to your shock im sure)) and group us together like that. Oh I must of forgotten that we’re not just humans like everyone else. We’re lower hutt.
Hey thanks for the encouragement though! Thats _awesome_!
I was going to write: “Those evil young (!) people. Those evil friends of Matthew. Gotta hate ’em… eh?”
But, I decided that was a little harsh. Perhaps, ‘K,’ you could come up with some suggestions for us? Matthew and Richard both saw flaws in what we said and have helpfully discussed these with us… rather than negate us on the basis of ageism, reformism, or otherwise. In the unlikely event that you would consider doing so, I have decided to do it for you:
Daniel and Sam are two young men who think in a manner different from me. I can see they are passionate about Christ, and his teachings. I disagree with the theology they capably discuss – more because I have been raised according to different philosphies from their ‘popular’ religions than anything else – and would like to have that noted, publically. In addition to this, I don’t endorse such frivelous desecration of the Church when that scallywag Daniel says “Church’s HATE Revelation. Everyone likes knowing that Jesus condemned us, saved us, went to heaven and left us to it. The idea that he’s coming back to clean up the place ‘throwing over international tables’ and declaring the place a den of thieves is not the lovely mamby pamby Christ we’ve come to adore. But it’ll happen. Your message would shock, but it needs to be said.”
Oh. Oops. I just proved him correct.
K.
“Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you..” (John 15:20) Who would of thought this would come from within our own ranks?
I think k is pointing to the likely negatory wider consequences of this particular brand of escatology, which might include:
– placing a low value on ordinary life, the earth as it is now, people who aren’t Christians, craftmanship, structural justice, long-term projects like hospitals and schools
– supporting stuff like the USA giving Israel a helping hand to quash Palestinians, including Palestinian Christians
From my point of view let me reiterate some things.
I was not placing a low value on anything. This has been my view for a long time and the looking for a second coming has been something instructed in the new testament time and time again. Just because I see myself as doomed to die in this world and seeking the eternal refuge of the afterlife it does not mean I abbandon all things on earth. No quite the opposite, because while we spend our short lives here as christ followers we also should spend it as christ soldiers. That is servants to Lord Jesus and all he instructed us to do when he left the mortal confines of this planet. Now i use the Bible as a handbook for my life, its contents are the operators manual of all things. It says be watchful of the second coming but it also says to keep a servant heart. Just because I discuss one with someone doesn’t mean I abbandon the other. If anyone sees wrong with me using the bible to orchestrate my life. Please excuse me. I must be horrible indeed.
I dont support the USA’s war mongering. In fact the USA confuses me a great deal and I tend not to involve myself too much in their politics. As I do not think for a minute that their war on evil is a religious war as some may suggest. It comes off as definatly political.
Now I stress this. These are MY opinions, not the opinions of “youth” or whatever stereotypes you want to catergorise me under. Long haired perhaps? Dark eyed? Silver wearer? Ethnicly challenged?
Finally. In 1 John 2:15 it is written : “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” There is a deeper meaning in that, obviously, as with most things. And I do understand it. This is what I was suggesting by “not getting comfortable”. But once again, if following scripture is seen as in my bad form. I DO APPOLOGISE. For you.
May I gently suggest that there’s a lot more heat than light being generated here? The dynamic of this convo started off badly and hasn’t really improved.
Maybe discussing this face-to-face will be more beneficial.
May I also suggest (to all) that being one of Christ’s soldiers, as Sam says, is a lot about dealing graciously with the faults and flaws we find in others? (Not something I always do well, either!)
Paul speaks of love covering a multitude of sins. Covering over the (often unintentional) abrasiveness of others – ignoring it, making accomodation for it, taking the best from it, treating the speaker well in spite of it, etc – is the best way to show that we take our theology seriously. But highlighting it and replying in kind isn’t the way to go! Just before the bit you quoted, Sam, John says:
Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
I’m not saying that there’s any hatred here, but let’s demonstrate our love and zeal for God by first of all treating our brothers (and sisters!) as God calls us to, despite the problems we have in expressing ourselves well.
K, I say within ranks justly. Are you not a son or daughter of the Father and follower of Jesus? If not then I appologise for mentioning this.
Feels right Aaron. You know me well enough to know that I am often brash. Because of my demeanour I often get impatient and come off sounding like I am frustrated when I am generally just trying to make reason, often by provocation, yes.
However I have realised that I am falling into the trap of trying to be worn down by being provoked here. This is to my fault and is to be meditated on but I will no longer be probed to anger (which I feel seems to be the general air here as there is no encouragement coming out of this). Aaron and (earlier) Matthew are right. This conversation would probably best be discussed in company rather than code.
Sam, I know well how frustrating it is to be simply debating – and others think you’re really worked up or frustrated or angry – or generally just very intense. That’s been my problem too, and I still have to work on it!
But never mind. Part of what ‘forgiveness’ means is welcoming and putting up with each other as we have the corners knocked off. And that’s a great thing to share.
I dont think that myself or Daniel represent “young popular christianity”, as this log is based on OUR OWN opinions and we are not representing anyone elses.
It is a sad state of affairs that you must be judgemental in this way and stereotype lower hutt (for whatever reason brought you to do this as there are more than two churches in the city (to your shock im sure)) and group us together like that. Oh I must of forgotten that we’re not just humans like everyone else. We’re lower hutt.
Hey thanks for the encouragement though! Thats _awesome_!
I was going to write: “Those evil young (!) people. Those evil friends of Matthew. Gotta hate ’em… eh?”
But, I decided that was a little harsh. Perhaps, ‘K,’ you could come up with some suggestions for us? Matthew and Richard both saw flaws in what we said and have helpfully discussed these with us… rather than negate us on the basis of ageism, reformism, or otherwise. In the unlikely event that you would consider doing so, I have decided to do it for you:
Daniel and Sam are two young men who think in a manner different from me. I can see they are passionate about Christ, and his teachings. I disagree with the theology they capably discuss – more because I have been raised according to different philosphies from their ‘popular’ religions than anything else – and would like to have that noted, publically. In addition to this, I don’t endorse such frivelous desecration of the Church when that scallywag Daniel says “Church’s HATE Revelation. Everyone likes knowing that Jesus condemned us, saved us, went to heaven and left us to it. The idea that he’s coming back to clean up the place ‘throwing over international tables’ and declaring the place a den of thieves is not the lovely mamby pamby Christ we’ve come to adore. But it’ll happen. Your message would shock, but it needs to be said.”
Oh. Oops. I just proved him correct.
K.
“Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you..” (John 15:20) Who would of thought this would come from within our own ranks?
I think k is pointing to the likely negatory wider consequences of this particular brand of escatology, which might include:
– placing a low value on ordinary life, the earth as it is now, people who aren’t Christians, craftmanship, structural justice, long-term projects like hospitals and schools
– supporting stuff like the USA giving Israel a helping hand to quash Palestinians, including Palestinian Christians
You like this new word huh?
From my point of view let me reiterate some things.
I was not placing a low value on anything. This has been my view for a long time and the looking for a second coming has been something instructed in the new testament time and time again. Just because I see myself as doomed to die in this world and seeking the eternal refuge of the afterlife it does not mean I abbandon all things on earth. No quite the opposite, because while we spend our short lives here as christ followers we also should spend it as christ soldiers. That is servants to Lord Jesus and all he instructed us to do when he left the mortal confines of this planet. Now i use the Bible as a handbook for my life, its contents are the operators manual of all things. It says be watchful of the second coming but it also says to keep a servant heart. Just because I discuss one with someone doesn’t mean I abbandon the other. If anyone sees wrong with me using the bible to orchestrate my life. Please excuse me. I must be horrible indeed.
I dont support the USA’s war mongering. In fact the USA confuses me a great deal and I tend not to involve myself too much in their politics. As I do not think for a minute that their war on evil is a religious war as some may suggest. It comes off as definatly political.
Now I stress this. These are MY opinions, not the opinions of “youth” or whatever stereotypes you want to catergorise me under. Long haired perhaps? Dark eyed? Silver wearer? Ethnicly challenged?
Finally. In 1 John 2:15 it is written : “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” There is a deeper meaning in that, obviously, as with most things. And I do understand it. This is what I was suggesting by “not getting comfortable”. But once again, if following scripture is seen as in my bad form. I DO APPOLOGISE. For you.
May I gently suggest that there’s a lot more heat than light being generated here? The dynamic of this convo started off badly and hasn’t really improved.
Maybe discussing this face-to-face will be more beneficial.
May I also suggest (to all) that being one of Christ’s soldiers, as Sam says, is a lot about dealing graciously with the faults and flaws we find in others? (Not something I always do well, either!)
Paul speaks of love covering a multitude of sins. Covering over the (often unintentional) abrasiveness of others – ignoring it, making accomodation for it, taking the best from it, treating the speaker well in spite of it, etc – is the best way to show that we take our theology seriously. But highlighting it and replying in kind isn’t the way to go! Just before the bit you quoted, Sam, John says:
I’m not saying that there’s any hatred here, but let’s demonstrate our love and zeal for God by first of all treating our brothers (and sisters!) as God calls us to, despite the problems we have in expressing ourselves well.
I hope you (all) take this in the spirit meant!
hmm, I posted my comment before I saw k’s reply. Apologies if it feels out-of-place now.
K, I say within ranks justly. Are you not a son or daughter of the Father and follower of Jesus? If not then I appologise for mentioning this.
Feels right Aaron. You know me well enough to know that I am often brash. Because of my demeanour I often get impatient and come off sounding like I am frustrated when I am generally just trying to make reason, often by provocation, yes.
However I have realised that I am falling into the trap of trying to be worn down by being provoked here. This is to my fault and is to be meditated on but I will no longer be probed to anger (which I feel seems to be the general air here as there is no encouragement coming out of this). Aaron and (earlier) Matthew are right. This conversation would probably best be discussed in company rather than code.
Sam, I know well how frustrating it is to be simply debating – and others think you’re really worked up or frustrated or angry – or generally just very intense. That’s been my problem too, and I still have to work on it!
But never mind. Part of what ‘forgiveness’ means is welcoming and putting up with each other as we have the corners knocked off. And that’s a great thing to share.
See you tonight, Sam?
may the reader note that sam did in fact see aaron last night.
th4nk y0u dav1d. 1n633d 1 h4v3 n0t3d 1t